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What Do You Think Happens After We Die?


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#31 dude17801

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 11:45 PM

i believe in reincarnation..and i'm not a buddist

#32 Guest_etile_*

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:25 AM

Alrighty, let's see

To Satone's response to my rambling about love and god and such, I suppose, I should have just said that some people treat love with more respect and devotion than they would god. Some folk even worship their partner more than god, which I think happens a lot.

To the person/folk who propse the spirtitual energy thing, I don't quite buy it simply because when dragonmatt said "However since everything requires energy (even spectral travel, i guess) the soul can only go so far before it's enregy depletes." Well, that implies that souls are mortal, that they die after they have no more energy (unless they can eat?). But, mortal souls are really no fun at all, because then we die twice, and really, who wants to do that?

Concerning Jess's thoughts about love, I would give props to god for owning love (Note: by own do you mean master it/feel true love, or do you literally mean to posses it, like a tangible object?). I mean normally we just experience it, or are consumed/ruled by it. Love without flaw would be awesome.

Moving on to free will. Oh free will... what can I say about you? Despite the fact that simply having free will might break a few laws of physics, I think I do believe in free will. Or, at the very least, the 'free will' model can be applied to our decisions fairly well.

But, moving on to hell and heaven. This gets interesting..
You see, I can't really believe in a god who supposedly loves us, yet creates a 'whole theme park' of punishments and agony for us, and throws us in there for how long? Eternity.. a concept, one that we can't even understand. And the kicker? All we've got to go on, in order to avoid this, is a dusty book written over two millenia ago by men. So, a punishment that we can't understand, which can only be avoided by following rules we don't even know are true. If that's love... then wow.

Sure, I suppose you could throw the 'faith' argument at me, but how do you know what to have faith in? Just because mommy and the pastor say one thing, should I believe it? I suppose I'm just trying to say that if God is all powerful and all knowing, with infinite and pure love to boot, then he can also be ALL forgiving, and cut his poor, confused children some slack. I don't see how free will can even matter, if we can't understand the consequences of our actions.

Heh, on a less angsty note, I suppose you could have a heaven and a hell (or something close to it), but, hell would have to not be a punishment. It would be more like.. a continuation of your psyche. But I need a bit o time to figure out how to word it, so I'll post it later.

#33 J-Christ

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 01:55 AM

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to throw in the 'atheist' arguement.

We can't know ANYTHING goes on in the afterlife. I believe that the 'afterlife' is just an idea that Man came up with as they cannot grasp the concept on non-being. Can you? It is pretty hard to come to grips with no senses, no light, no vision, no feeling, no existing. You cannot even put it into words.

#34 BreakTheReflection

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 02:02 AM

I believe there's life after death...I have no proof to back it up, but I just do. That's all I have to say I suppose...

#35 Guest_etile_*

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 02:22 AM

QUOTE(J-Christ @ Oct 24 2005, 04:55 PM) View Post

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to throw in the 'atheist' arguement.

We can't know ANYTHING goes on in the afterlife. I believe that the 'afterlife' is just an idea that Man came up with as they cannot grasp the concept on non-being. Can you? It is pretty hard to come to grips with no senses, no light, no vision, no feeling, no existing. You cannot even put it into words.


*nod*
But, by the same token, we cannot grasp the concept of eternal love, and of an eternal, perfect god. So it's just a bunch of hard to handle concepts all around, says I.

#36 dude17801

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 02:28 AM

all we can do is believe

#37 Satone

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:03 AM

QUOTE(dude17801 @ Oct 24 2005, 05:45 PM) View Post

i believe in reincarnation..and i'm not a buddist

You can believe in reincarnation without being Buddhist. It is just that Buddhism is a religion that practices the knowledge of an afterlife and reincarnation openly.

QUOTE(etile @ Oct 24 2005, 07:25 PM) View Post

Heh, on a less angsty note, I suppose you could have a heaven and a hell (or something close to it), but, hell would have to not be a punishment. It would be more like.. a continuation of your psyche. But I need a bit o time to figure out how to word it, so I'll post it later.

Trying to say that Hell would be much like reliving life on Earth?

QUOTE(J-Christ @ Oct 24 2005, 07:55 PM) View Post

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to throw in the 'atheist' arguement.

We can't know ANYTHING goes on in the afterlife. I believe that the 'afterlife' is just an idea that Man came up with as they cannot grasp the concept on non-being. Can you? It is pretty hard to come to grips with no senses, no light, no vision, no feeling, no existing. You cannot even put it into words.

Well, you seem to have put it together pretty well.

QUOTE(etile @ Oct 24 2005, 08:22 PM) View Post

*nod*
But, by the same token, we cannot grasp the concept of eternal love, and of an eternal, perfect god. So it's just a bunch of hard to handle concepts all around, says I.

Exactly! And that's where arguments seem to span out with different opinions and references. We're human. We're curious. We wish to possess all knowledge.

#38 Tundra142

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 04:17 AM

QUOTE(J-Christ @ Oct 24 2005, 07:55 PM) View Post

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to throw in the 'atheist' arguement.

We can't know ANYTHING goes on in the afterlife. I believe that the 'afterlife' is just an idea that Man came up with as they cannot grasp the concept on non-being. Can you? It is pretty hard to come to grips with no senses, no light, no vision, no feeling, no existing. You cannot even put it into words.


um... *whispers* shut up!

yeah, it is extremely hard to imagine that.

like way extremely

#39 Guest_etile_*

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:56 AM

QUOTE(Satone @ Oct 24 2005, 07:03 PM) View Post

Trying to say that Hell would be much like reliving life on Earth?


Well, have you read Dante's Inferno, by any chance? In it, the denizens of hell are punished according to their sin, so what occupied them in life takes over in Hell, sorta. It would be kind of like that, but it wouldn't be a punishment.. it would just be the world you created for yourself.

OH! In the movie 'What Dreams May Come' (with Robin Williams), the wife kills herself, and in her hell she lives all alone in a dilapidated version of her own house, in a stupor, moaning the loss of her kids, and generally bemoaning everything. So, the things that drove her to commit suicide are what she has to deal with in her own personal hell. So, something like that.

Ah, and I think you can fall from heaven. I doubt you would want to, since everything is awesome up there, but, in the Bible, Lucifer was an angel once, no? And wasn't he one of the top-ranked ones, as well?

#40 BreakTheReflection

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:22 AM

I don't understand how Lucifer became a fallen angel...I mean I didn't know angels could even have any sort of evil in them... I thought God made them to be different from people...Sorry I'm rambling...this is yet another deep thought...haha

#41 Guest_etile_*

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 08:16 AM

Well, yeah, I sure hope they were different. But, if they were given the gift of free will, then they could go bad. And that's where the fun begins

#42 BreakTheReflection

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:24 PM

I guess I just supposed that they didn't have free will...I guess I don't really know much about angels...

#43 Zelda Princess

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 05:59 AM

You know, about the whole forever and love thing:

I was going to say something, then I realized, 'Well, maybe I shouldn't, love can be a touchy subject for some, because they believe in it so.' Then I found it funny that I was more hesitant with love than with god. So, I suppose one could say that in a way love is the new god, in that some folk believe in its superiority to all of us. Then, I started thinking more, and realized that there are so many holes in my argument, I couldn't use it to hold up bricks. THEN I remembered something I always like to muse upon: That even lies have value, even lies can reveal truths, lead you to a better path. This made me feel better about the above crappy argument.


Thinking about that, it's a good point. Love these days does seem to be 'the new god'. But think of it this way: What if God is Love?

The emotion can be felt by anyone, and be worshiped, as of nearly any item can.

Love is a supreme emotion, to me. Unconditional love makes your head spin, just trying to comprehend the whole idea. I believe God is love. Us beings can experience love, and we can worship it without giving its "creator", persay, the credit for it. But that's just my view...

Anyways, I forgot what I was originally going to say.. prolly something about how love may not forever. But, I would have dressed it up all fancy-like, perhaps saying, 'If some folk can believe or can't believe in god, while others can/can't believe in love, what makes one more eternal or true than the other?'


With your little fancy saying there:

If a person believes in love, but does not believe in God, that is vanity for:

"Beloved, let us love one another. For love is of God and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Though he who loves not, does not know God for God is love."

--1 John 4:7-8. {I never thought that song I learned as a child would come in handy, you know that?}

And the same goes as of to a person who believes in God, but not in love. That would be pure vanity also.

Then I realized that I couldn't think straight, as evident by how badly argued my points were, which led to me remembering that I just finished my midterm, was running on 4 hours of sleep, to top off an already sleep deprived week, and how I have an unstarted problem set due in less than 5 hours. Then my mind went all crazy, as I started thinking about all that, while trying to reword my original thoughts, while I thought about the topic in general, wanting to go home for the weekend and sleep, thinking about having a pondering forum, and maybe some sort of advice thread, wanting to talk to Jess, wondering how my midterms went, and trying to figure out everything in general. Then I...

[edit]
...pressed the 'Add Reply' button. Now, aren't you glad you read all this?


{I felt special.}

Hmm... I think love is more or less the Heaven. Hell, I don't know. Much like you, I'm rambling with no real point. I'm surprised my sentences are even making sense right now.


Well. In my little opinion, Heaven and Hell are more like realms. It's kinda hard to put into words what I do want to say, but er.. yeah.. =/

Alrighty, let's see

To Satone's response to my rambling about love and god and such, I suppose, I should have just said that some people treat love with more respect and devotion than they would god. Some folk even worship their partner more than god, which I think happens a lot.


This is true.

To the person/folk who propse the spirtitual energy thing, I don't quite buy it simply because when dragonmatt said "However since everything requires energy (even spectral travel, i guess) the soul can only go so far before it's enregy depletes." Well, that implies that souls are mortal, that they die after they have no more energy (unless they can eat?). But, mortal souls are really no fun at all, because then we die twice, and really, who wants to do that?


Yes. Who wants to do that? It would be such vanity.. I belive in a meaning for things. Why else would we have souls, and where did they come from?

Concerning Jess's thoughts about love, I would give props to god for owning love (Note: by own do you mean master it/feel true love, or do you literally mean to posses it, like a tangible object?). I mean normally we just experience it, or are consumed/ruled by it. Love without flaw would be awesome.


I meant something like a tangible object almost. Like God is the supreme Love.

Yeah. Love without flaw is soooo awesome..

Moving on to free will. Oh free will... what can I say about you? Despite the fact that simply having free will might break a few laws of physics, I think I do believe in free will. Or, at the very least, the 'free will' model can be applied to our decisions fairly well.


There is hope for you! ;p I'm just kidding. Just had to say something about that paragraph.. yeah.. ignore me..

But, moving on to hell and heaven. This gets interesting..
You see, I can't really believe in a god who supposedly loves us, yet creates a 'whole theme park' of punishments and agony for us, and throws us in there for how long? Eternity.. a concept, one that we can't even understand. And the kicker? All we've got to go on, in order to avoid this, is a dusty book written over two millenia ago by men. So, a punishment that we can't understand, which can only be avoided by following rules we don't even know are true. If that's love... then wow.


Take the example of cold. Cold is the absense of heat, no? Take it that Love (God) is the absense of hell.

And the Bible - mesa believes - was written by God. I believe God worked through those men to write his Word. And the reason he did that was so he had different people from different times each witnessing his works.

Sure, I suppose you could throw the 'faith' argument at me, but how do you know what to have faith in? Just because mommy and the pastor say one thing, should I believe it? I suppose I'm just trying to say that if God is all powerful and all knowing, with infinite and pure love to boot, then he can also be ALL forgiving, and cut his poor, confused children some slack. I don't see how free will can even matter, if we can't understand the consequences of our actions.


You have your own will to believe whatever you wish, though that's an understatement.

How do you know what to have faith in? By witnessing with your own eyes certain events, seeing things moving that are invisible.

God is all forgiving, though you have to come forward with your own sins and ask for forgiveness.

And if we understood the consequences of our actions, think how much more we would be aware of who God was. We have to have only a certain amount of evidence he really does exist. Faith is a huge thing, and it's like a test with all the other distractions here in this world.

We have to have free will, and only we can choose what to do with ourselves.

Heh, on a less angsty note, I suppose you could have a heaven and a hell (or something close to it), but, hell would have to not be a punishment. It would be more like.. a continuation of your psyche. But I need a bit o time to figure out how to word it, so I'll post it later.


Will be awaiting that post. *Faint smile*..

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to throw in the 'atheist' arguement.

We can't know ANYTHING goes on in the afterlife. I believe that the 'afterlife' is just an idea that Man came up with as they cannot grasp the concept on non-being. Can you? It is pretty hard to come to grips with no senses, no light, no vision, no feeling, no existing. You cannot even put it into words.


We don't know anything that goes on in the afterlife, that's true. But what's the point, if there is no afterlife and there is no point to anything? Why do we have souls, and why do we have free will?

Well, have you read Dante's Inferno, by any chance? In it, the denizens of hell are punished according to their sin, so what occupied them in life takes over in Hell, sorta. It would be kind of like that, but it wouldn't be a punishment.. it would just be the world you created for yourself.

OH! In the movie 'What Dreams May Come' (with Robin Williams), the wife kills herself, and in her hell she lives all alone in a dilapidated version of her own house, in a stupor, moaning the loss of her kids, and generally bemoaning everything. So, the things that drove her to commit suicide are what she has to deal with in her own personal hell. So, something like that.


Yeah, kinda like that. In a way, you sort of created Hell for yourself, choosing the 'wrong way to go' (in my opinion). Because, according to the Bible, the Devil is going to be locked away, and held prisoner forever and cast into his own fiery inferno. And Hell will go on, without a ruler, in a way. So yeah.

Ah, and I think you can fall from heaven. I doubt you would want to, since everything is awesome up there, but, in the Bible, Lucifer was an angel once, no? And wasn't he one of the top-ranked ones, as well?


Lucifer was one of the top-ranked angels, but you see, this was before Earth was created. Lucifer wanted to be the top, ahead of God, and so he rebelled, and he was punished for it. There was free will then, and there is now. But in the end when everyone will be separated into the groups of which way they did go, you cannot leave from those groups.

To tell the truth, I don't know a lot about the subject of Lucifer and everything. I haven't studied it. But I can find information. And I will, if anyone would like.

#44 BreakTheReflection

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 07:03 AM

Wow...took me a while to read all of your post...you had some good points...you seem to be the only person here that's sure of anything...I feel as though I have to have proof and solid evidence to show someone else what I believe about something so I haven't posted too many of my own opinions here...I do believe in God though and I believe in Heaven and Hell and I know it's all true...I have no evidence but I can feel it...and that's good enough for me...I'm still wondering how things will be after I die, but all I can figure is that I'm just not meant to know everything yet...if I did, then what would I think about all the time...?haha

#45 Guest_etile_*

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 08:03 AM

QUOTE(Zelda Princess @ Oct 25 2005, 08:59 PM) View Post

What if God is Love?


Then hell seems a little too much...


QUOTE(Zelda Princess @ Oct 25 2005, 08:59 PM) View Post

There is hope for you!


Thank god! >.< [no pun intended]

QUOTE(Zelda Princess @ Oct 25 2005, 08:59 PM) View Post

Take it that Love (God) is the absense of hell.


I think it's the other way around, that hell is the absence of god, but yeah.

QUOTE(Zelda Princess @ Oct 25 2005, 08:59 PM) View Post

And the Bible - mesa believes - was written by God. I believe God worked through those men to write his Word. And the reason he did that was so he had different people from different times each witnessing his works.


I think the words 'though' 'different' and 'witnessing' are key terms. You see, even if god really inspired those writing, MEN were the ones that penned it all down. They saw and were told some incredible things, and were exposed to trippy truths and visions. I think that it's very possible that some things were writting down wrong, or may have not been interpreted the way god wanted to.

Plus, think of all the time has passed. Two millenia ago, things were different. Men in power (religious or political) did what they wanted, without checks or balances. Isn't it possible, maybe even probable, that men in power may have tinkered with it, for their own good, or maybe because they thought it was for the good of Christendom?

Also, I imagine the translation and transcription errors must've messed things up a bit.

Eh, I lost sight of the 'point' of this, but I suppose I just wanted to show why I don't put too too much faith in the good book.

QUOTE(Zelda Princess @ Oct 25 2005, 08:59 PM) View Post

How do you know what to have faith in? By witnessing with your own eyes certain events, seeing things moving that are invisible.
Faith is a huge thing, and it's like a test with all the other distractions here in this world.


That's what I don't like about faith. You don't really know what the truth is, because all the info we have is from mortal men (divinely inspired or not). So, I sort of believe it's a gamble believeing in all that. And, if I'm gonna gamble on my salvation, I'd rather go with the beliefs I've garnered over the years, instead of what some fellow in a robe from a certain denomination is telling me. That way, when I'm burnin' in hell, I'll know it was all me.

Oh, and I think you're quotes don't work, because there are more than ten of them

QUOTE(BreakTheReflection @ Oct 25 2005, 10:03 PM) View Post

all I can figure is that I'm just not meant to know everything yet...if I did, then what would I think about all the time...?haha


Awesome point
*nod*




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