[BreakTheReflection]

Pathological Lying

Pathological Lying
Thus, lies are of different degrees and are told for various purposes and with differing frequencies. What, then, amounts to "pathological" lying, and what distinguishes the pathological liar from the person who just lies a lot? Dike and colleagues¹ suggest that the diagnosis is made when the lying is persistent, pervasive, disproportionate, and not motivated primarily by reward or other external factors. They also suggest, however, that a key characteristic of pathological lying may be its compulsive nature, with pathological liars "unable to control their lying," although another term they use is "impulsive." In addition, they refer to other accounts that speculate on whether the pathological liar may be unaware that he is lying, although they point to evidence showing that, when challenged, the pathological liar admits to at least a partial recognition of his or her lies (which assumes, of course, that pathological liars can be accurately identified so this can be tested in the absence of a clear definition or operational criteria). Clearly, to be a pathological liar, an individual must lie on more than a few occasions, but how frequent does the behavior have to be? Is the scale of the lie really important, or does this just make the pathological liar easier to spot? And why is it relevant that the lies seem pointless? From a psychiatric point of view, lying is simply a type of behavior, albeit a complex one, that demands an appreciation of the abstract concept of truth. What makes a behavior psychiatrically abnormal is not its degree or its purpose, but the extent to which the individual has power over it. The fact that a behavior may cause the individual more harm than good and that there does not seem to be a rational reason for it may be indicators of psychiatric morbidity, but neither is necessary or sufficient to establish a disorder. What these indicators suggest, however, is an apparent lack of control. For pathological lying to exist, therefore, the individual must lie despite himself, just as someone with an anxiety disorder cannot help feeling anxious.

If this formulation is right, then there are no pathological lies, only pathological liars. And whether or not this is primary or secondary to another condition, it suggests a disorder that is either compulsive in nature or something akin to an impulse control disorder. Although if it is true that some or all pathological liars are in fact unaware of their lies, something more fundamentally organic seems likely. Without evidence of compulsivity, excessive impulsivity, or brain dysfunction, habitual lying, no matter how grand, is not a symptom, syndrome, or diagnosis, but just plain lying.

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I was just reading through this and I found it pretty interesting. Do you think there really are pathological liars? Do you believe it's really possible that someone can have no control over their own lying?

[Eraserhead]

I don't believe people lie for no reason, pathological(or just plain) liars probably lie about stuff because they think it's funny. Sometimes it's just funny to tell someone an outright lie and keep a straight face until they leave. Don't believe me? Go up to someone with a straight face and say "Bush was impeached for smoking crack in The White house" and when they get surprised and say "really?" say "yeah" real seriously and just go with flow after that, after they find out it isn't true and they accuse you of playing a joke on them deny ever saying that and then come up with another lie(and the cycle continues).

[Zelda Princess]

I know a pathological liar. I don't believe that people have some mental condition that causes them to lie for no reason... but rather people lie to themselves and have the ability to believe it so well that it becomes real. This person can do absolutely nothing wrong -- whatever she does is someone else's fault, and if anyone obstructs her view, they're insane. She constantly lies about little things to big, and whatever she says, no matter how insane, is true.

[_TJ_]

A person who states they have no control has only convinced themselves of this, if they continually lie then sooner or later one lie cannot be separated over another, and every lie thereon-in would seem natural.

[BreakTheReflection]

A person who states they have no control has only convinced themselves of this, if they continually lie then sooner or later one lie cannot be separated over another, and every lie thereon-in would seem natural.

That makes sense to me. It's like denial...

[TheRiddler]

Pathological lying doesn't exist.

(It actually does, I just proved it^)

[Eraserhead]

This makes me think of what French existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre refers to as "bad faith". He believed that people lie to themselves and, underneath these lies, people negate their own being through patterns.

I think this makes sense, to me(don't ask how) it's like saying we are slaves to our own personality(that we act and think according to what we believe our personality to be). So when we are faced with circumstances that contradicts our personalities we find it difficult. So a pathological liar having the personality that he has would find telling certain truths difficult, or if the liar just lies for no reason he would find it difficult not to lie for no reason.

edit: Just so you know better what I'm talking about:

Bad faith is a condition entered into when individuals negate their true nature in an attempt to become a self they are not. The classic example is Sartre's waiter who is always just slightly too friendly, too helpful, too willing to play the part of a waiter rather than being the less friendly, helpful and waiter-like self he would be if he were not assuming the identity of "waiter." In assuming the role of "waiter," Sartre's character has negated himself by denying his authentic ego with all its characteristics not becoming of a waiter.

One of the most important implications of bad faith is the abolition of traditional ethics and morality. As being a moral person requires one to deny authentic impulses and change one's actions based on the will of a person other than oneself, being a moral person is one of the most severe forms of bad faith. Sartre has a very low opinion of conventional morality for this reason, condemning it as a tool of the bourgioisie to control the masses, like so many signs to keep off the grass, deriving "its being from its exigency and not its exigency from its being."

Bad faith also results when individuals begin to view their life as made up of distinct past events, like the "perfect moments" or "adventures" from Nausea. By viewing one's ego as it once was rather than as it currently is, one ends up negating the current self and replacing it with a past self that no longer exists (as illustrated by Anny in Nausea).

[Fairys101]

Lying is very naughty!

[Fairys101]

Lying is very naughty! One time I asked someone if they had any gum, and they said no, and then later i saw them chewing gum! I was so upset that they did not tell the truth!

[trigunkilla]

pathological lying is more a defensive measure then anything. nobody can hurt YOU if all they know are lies. there is a psychological abnormality that causes people to do this compulsively though.

[etile]

My own two cents:

How would I define pathological lying? Like the snippet that Katie quoted, I would say it needs to be a behavior that the person finds hard to control. Also, it cannot be rational. Rational lying, even repeated, simply makes the person a schemer. I think pathological lying should get the person little or no gain (or even a loss) on a day to day basis. That way, we separate the pathological liars from those that simply like to lie.

Possible causes. The difficulty in controlling lying behavior makes me think of a lack of inhibition. That is usually a frontal lobe deficiency. since that's where most executive functions are directed. Yet there has to be another component, or else you could end up with a person who is a pathological truth-teller, or simply a pathological talker (cannot keep their internal monologue internal, for example). I think this extra dysfunction would have to deal with either morality, or calculating consequences. If a person can't process the idea that lies are immoral, and that speaking lies will bring negative consequences, then combined with a lack of inhibition, you'd get someone looking a lot like a pathological liar.

Also, I think the person would need to have a vague grasp of reality. I think that would help. I'll explain my thoughts on that if anyone wants me to.

Oh, and I'm not saying that all lies are immoral, or that lying will ALWAYS bring negative consequences. That's a WHOLE 'nother discussion. BUT, most 'well-adjusted' people have a sense that lying is bad, or at least can be bad. This prolly stems from the fact that social interactions because almost impossible to conduct unless you assume that the other person is telling the truth.

[Shiggy]

Sounds like bull to me.

It's like ADD. Just gives people a reason to jack off.

[Mike!]

Dike and colleagues

Hahahahahahahaha.

[metroid_dragon]

Trust me, it exists, I do it all the time.

For example, sometimes I'll be asked what I'm doing that night and I'll fish for a lie when there is absolutely no reason to, it's REALLY annoying.

I first realized I did it when one time I was fishing for a lie, and I accidentally told the truth. I actually thought it was a lie until it came out of my mouth, then I realized that the truth was perfectly acceptable in that situation and there was absolutely no need to lie. It's become a force of habit that happens without me realizing it.

Since I realized I do it, I've been trying to break the habit, but it's not the easiest thing in the world. Regardless, I never lie about important matters, only things that are so trivial I shouldn't need to, which makes it all the more baffling. Well, I guess it's not that confusing since important matters require more thought than trivial matters like who I'm going to go see or what time I'll be arriving.

Also, I think the person would need to have a vague grasp of reality. I think that would help. I'll explain my thoughts on that if anyone wants me to.

I am interested actually.

[ImCoolYoureNot]

I must say that I actually agree 100% with trigun's statement on this. People lie because if all someone knows about you is lies then they can't hurt you. I just got out of a relationship because the girl could not stop lying to me about anything. I doubt that she ever told me the truth. She even lied to me about her favorite food I'm pretty sure that she did it because she was afraid that either: 1. I wouldn't like her anymore if I knew the truth about everything or 2. I would somehow use it against her and hurt her with it.